INDEX
Alan Sherman #1
Interviews of Case# 00150890
Non-Accuser Interview: Alan Sherman # 1
By: Detective Monica Merrifield
Date: 12/06/2000
DETECTIVE: OK. What is your name? Your full name so I can write it down
ALAN SHERMAN: Alan Tucker
DETECTIVE: Alan? Tucker?
ALAN SHERMAN: T-U-C-K-E-R
Q: You now need to tell me your last name
A: S-H-E-R-M-A-N
Q: And, Alan, how old are you?
A: Seven and a half
Q: Seven and a half? OK.
A: Almost eight
Q: Almost eight? When is your birthday?
A: January 12th
Q: January 12th?
A: Yeah
Q: Wow. So you are almost at that big eight, aren’t you? I see you are in uniform, where do you go to school?
A: Hum, Eastside Christian School
Q: Do you like it there?
A: Uhu
Q: Oh, good,
A: I am going to two, hum, in January 9th I am going home school
Q: You are doing home school in January 9th
A: Uhu
Q: Well that sounds special, you get to sleep late?
A: Uhu
Q: Good for you. Well Alan, I’m going to draw a picture of you right here on my board. OK? Smile? Have a smile on it? OK.
A: {shakes head yes}
Q: This is Alan. Alan, who do you live with?
A: Um, my mom, dad. And my brother
Q: Your brother and that would be?
A: Jerry
Q: Jerry? Who I just saw outside, right?
A: Yeah
Q: That’s it? Do you have any pets?
A: Yeah
Q: What do you have?
A: (unintelligible)
Q: Ah..You know what, we have a lady in our office, she has a lot of those. Those are neat dogs? Huh, little white fluffy dogs.
A: They’re so fluffy I like em (whispers something can’t be heard)
Q: You do?
A: He is very active
Q: He is very active? He probably has to be with two little boys in the house.
A: Uhu
Q: OK. Well Alan, all I want to do today is talk to you to see if things are going OK, OK?
A: Yeah
Q: And the only rule that I have is that you just tell me the truth. OK?
A: Ok
Q: Do you know what the truth is?
A: Yeah
Q: What the truth is?
A: Is tell something that is right, that did happen or will happen
Q: OK. So you are safe in here, OK?
A: Uhu
Q: And nothing, you are not in any kind of trouble, OK? so you can tell me anything you want to tell me
A: OK
Q: That sounds good?
A: Uhu
Q: So as long as it’s the truth, right?
A: Yeah
Q: OK. I am going to show you two pictures, now, can you tell me what they are pictures of?
A: a boy and a girl
Q: a boy and a girl. And which one looks more like you?
A: {points to a drawing} That one.
Q: This one. OK. What I am going to ask you to do for me, I am going to point to some body parts
A: OK
Q: and I like you to give me the name of that, whatever name you use is fine, OK?
A: OK
Q: How about this?
A: Hair
Q: {points to the drawing}
A: Hair
Q: Tried to trick you and it didn’t work, did it?
A: Um, Um (shakes head no)
Q: {points to the drawing}
A: Hum, beebies
Q: beebies? OK {points to drawing}
A: Hum, hand.
Q: {points to the drawing}
A: Bottom
Q: OK, just whatever you call them
A: Foot
Q: {Points to the drawing}
A: Wiener
Q: Wiener. OK. {points to the drawing}
A: mouth
Q: Mouth. And let’s see if I can get you in this, what is that?
A: Eyebrow
Q: Eyebrow. OK. Do you know the difference between a good touch and a bad touch?
A: Yes
Q: Can you tell what a good touch is?
A: Hum, you can touch any body part except the privates
Q: OK. And when you tell me your privates
A: Yes
Q: Which ones should you not touch?
A: That one
Q: And that one
A: and that one
Q: so that would be a bad touch, right?
A: Yes
Q: Where on your body would it be ok to have a good touch?
A: Hum, may be, hair?
Q: Your hair, ok.
A: Hum, may be your foot
Q: Your foot.
A: and your hand
Q: and your hand. OK. Does any body give you good touches?
A: Yes
Q: Who gives you good touches?
A: My mom
Q: Mom
A: Hum, dad
Q: Dad
A: Hum, and my cousins.
Q; And your cousins?
A: She is, Yeah, my older cousins. They are like nineteens
Q: Nineteen
A: Seventeen
Q: Wow. So you have the big older cousin
A: Yeah and I have a little one and a middle one.
Q: What about bad touches? Does anybody ever given you a bad touch?
A: Yes
Q: Yes?
A: Yes, my mom and dad
Q: Your mom and dad?
A: They spank me
Q: Oh, Oh, OK, I am sure we all have those bad touches, haven’t we?
A: Yeah
Q: Have you ever have any other bad touches? Or touches that make you feel uncomfortable?
A: No
Q: No? No remember what I told you, you can tell me anything in here, so that if you remember something, anything you tell me here it is OK, OK?
A: I already know, but may be when I was a little boy, I don’t’ know, that was a long time ago
Q: That was a long time ago. All right, you are so big now
A: Uhu
Q: Do you remember a little bit of something?
A: I remember I was a baby, but that was nothing
Q: You were a baby, Oh. Do you
A: Nothing bad really happened
Q: Do you have any activities at the school? Do you play baseball or hockey?
A: I do Taekwondo
Q: Taekwondo?
A: Hum, I used to take baseball
Q: Baseball? You don’t take it anymore?
A: I may take soccer. I don’t know, because I go home school.
Q: Oh
A: I will go to home school for only 4 hours.
Q: When you are play any of these sports or anything
A: Yeah
Q: Have you ever got any of those bad touches there?
A: No
Q: No?
A: uh, uh {shakes head no}
Q: So, who is are coaches?
A: -----------------------
Q: You said you did baseball, who is the coach of your baseball team
A: I don’t really remember
Q: Don’t remember?
A: No
Q: Where did you play baseball?
A: Hum, oh, I don’t remember either.
Q: What about you said you take taekwondo?
A: Yeah
Q: Where did you take that at?
A: At my school
Q: Your school? Which is?
A: Eastside Christian School
Q: Eastside. Tell me a little bit about your coach
A: Hum, well, his name is Mr. Gunther
Q: -----------
A: Hum. He is very good at Taekwondo, he is a black belt third degree.
Q: A black belt? That is impressive. Isn’t it?
A: His master. He is black belt ninth degree.
Q: Oh, mine, so you don’t want to mess with him, do you?
A: Uhu {shakes head no}
Q: Do you like taekwondo?
A: Yes. I am a green belt
Q: You are a green belt? What comes after green?
A: Ah, a green stripe which is Purple
Q: Neat. Do you feel comfortable at karate?
A: Uhu {nodded head yes}
Q: You like going?
A: Uh huh
Q: Nothing that ever happened that bothered you at karate?
A: Uh uh (shakes head no)
Q: Nothing ever that makes you feel uncomfortable?
A: Aha (shakes head no)
Q: And you’ve never been touched in your bottom … or your privates?
A: No
Q: No? OK, well, you know, thank you for coming and talking to me. You did a good job.
A: Thank you.
(Whereupon, the video was concluded)
Alan Sherman #2
Interviews of Case# 00150890
Non-Accuser Interview: Alan Sherman # 2
By: Detective Mary Finlayson
Date: 12/06/2000 at 12:07 AM
DETECTIVE: How are you doing?
ALAN SHERMAN: Good
DETECTIVE: Your name is Al?
ALAN SHERMAN: Uh huh
Q: All right. You know? what I want this, I’ll be right back. Do you want to seat in that chair right there?
A: Uh hu
( Whereupon, the detective left the room, returned and the interview continued, as follows: )
Q: OK, Mr. Al, my name is Mary and I talk to boys and girls all the time
A: Uh huh
Q: That’s what I do up here. It’s talk to them about things, to make sure everything is OK.
A: Yeah.
Q: And I think you just talk to Ms. Monica, but I just want to talk to you a little bit, OK?
A: Uh huh
Q: Now, you and Ms. Monica have talked about the body parts
A: Uh huh (nodded head yes)
Q: So you talk to her about the hair, and the mouth and the beebies?And you call this part of the body the wiener?
A: Uh huh
Q: And you call this part of your body the wiener?
A: Uh huh
Q: And what do you do with that part of your body?
A: you pee
Q: You pee with it? OK. And then you said the foot, and here is the bottom
A: Yeah
Q: OK, and what is this here?
A: Your back
Q: OK. And you all talk about that. Did she talk to you about hugs?
A: (shakes head no)
Q: We like to ask boys and girls about hugs. Does anybody give you a hug that you like?
A: Uh huh (nodded head yes)
Q: Who gives you hugs that you like?
A: Mom, dad, my brother
Q: OK. Your mom, your dad, your brother?
A: Uh huh, and my uncle
Q: OK. Does anybody give you a hug that you don’t like?
A: No
Q: No? OK. But, Al, I am going to tell you that you are not in any kind of trouble, OK? Did Ms. Monica tell you that?
A: Yeah
Q: OK. And that you can talk to us about anything that you want to talk about, cause you are not in any trouble, and you are not getting anybody in trouble.
A: OK
Q: This is really important. What that while we are talking, that we promise to tell each other the truth.
A: Uh huh (nodded head yes)
Q: OK, did you talk to Ms. Monica about the truth and lie?
A: Uh huh (nodded head yes)
Q: OK. Because we just need to make sure that we know the truth about anything that may have happened or what .. what is going on.
A: (no comment or answer)
Q: Do you know why you came up here today?
A: {shakes head no} Humm, uh uh.
Q: You don’t know why you came up here today?
A: Yes. They didn’t tell me.
Q: They didn’t tell you?
A: I kept asking them to.
Q: You did? Well I don’t blame you. All right so, we talk about hugs, and how about kisses? Does anybody give you kisses that you like?
A: Uh huh {nodded head yes}
Q: Who give you kisses that you like?
A: Everybody in my family, except for like..my dogs.
Q: OK. Dog’s kinda sloppy kissers aren’t they?
A: Yeah
Q: OK. And, so how about, and does anybody give you kisses that you don’t like?
A: Yeah, my dog.
Q: Your dog
A: Ah ha (nodded head yes)
Q: Oh, yes, you said it, they are kind of sloppy. So how about, does anybody give you any touches in your body that you like?
A: Uh huh
Q: OK, so who gives you touches that you like?
A: Probably everybody in my family
Q: OK, so where in your body would be a touch that you like?
A: Eak, in my hair
Q: Ok
A: Your foot
Q: Ok
A: Your hand.
Q: Alright. So, does anybody give you any touches on your body that you don’t like?
A: No
Q: No? OK. Where would be a touch that you would not like if somebody touched you there?
A: Um, that, that {pointing to drawings}
Q: That, you mean, your wiener and your bottom?
A: Yeah
Q: Has anybody ever touched you before on your wiener?
A: No, except me {Uh huh, laugh’s}
Q: Except you?
A: Yeah
Q: OK. Has anybody ever touched you in your bottom before?
A: Yes, my mom and dad
Q: Mom and dad?
A: Yeah
Q: OK. All right. Ah, do you have a friend named Cory?
A: Yes
Q: OK. And how do you know Cory?
A: Ah, we have been friends for a very long time.
Q: Very long time?
A: Aha {nodded head yes}
Q: OK. And, ah, do you all do anything together?
A: Uh huh {nodded head yes}
Q: What kind of stuff do you do all together?
A: Hum, we do taekwondo together. Hum, we spent the night a few days ago, or a few weeks ago. Hum, I go to his house play a lot, he comes over to my house to play a lot, that’s about it.
Q: OK. So you all play together? Did you feel like you were about to cry just now?
A: No
Q: No? So you all take taekwondo together. And, did Ms. Monica talk to you about taekwondo?
A: Yeah
Q: About, what is your teacher’s name at taekwondo?
A: Mr. Gunther
Q: Mr. Gunther? How do you feel about Mr. Gunther?
A: He is nice, and, yeah, I like him
Q: Do you like him?
A: Yeah
Q: OK. Well, did you know that Cory came here earlier today and talked to me?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: You did know?
A: Uhu
Q: And, did he tell you about anything that happened to him at taekwondo?
A: No
Q: He didn’t tell you that?
A: uh uh
Q; Well, when I was talking with him, he told me some things that happened at taekwondo that made him feel sad
A: Yeah
Q: and that made him feel uncomfortable
A: Yeah
Q: And he told me that the same things had happened to you
A: {no answer}
Q: And that’s why I wanted to talk to you today
A; OK
Q: OK? Because you are not in trouble, and Cory is not in trouble either
A: Yeah
Q: OK. But he has told us that some things have happened to you at taekwondo that happened to him
A: What?
Q: Some, some, that he has gotten some touches that he did not like on his body
A: {shakes head no} I’ve never had it, never.
Q: Ok. So no one has ever touches you anywhere in your body that you didn’t like?
A: {shakes head no}. Nobody
Q: OK. So if Cory said that somebody had touched you on your wiener, is that true or is that a lie?
A: That is a lie
Q: Is a lie?
A: Yeah. I have never had anybody touch me there.
Q: All right. What would you do if somebody?
A: May be my dog {laughing} but … maybe I was naked in the bathroom and he came in…
Q: OK. So what would you do if somebody did touch you there on your wiener?
A: Hum. I would either say that’s rude or I would tell my teacher and my mom
Q: OK, have you ever told anybody that somebody has touched you there?
A: {shakes head no} No
Q: Ok. So you know that if anybody ever touches you in one of those places, that it is ok for you to tell
A: Yes
Q: And that you won’t be in any kind of trouble
A: Yes
Q: And even if somebody tells you not to tell
A: Yeah
Q: it is ok for you to tell
A: Yeah
Q: OK. So I just wanted to ask you, that’s why I brought you back in here, because Cory has told us that the same person that touched him
A: Yeah
Q: Ah, on an uncomfortable place
A: Yeah
Q: that that person had done the same thing to you
A: Uh hu {shakes head no}
Q: OK, so you say that is not true?
A: That is not true
Q: OK. All right, I thank you for coming in and talking to me, OK?
A: OK
Q: Alright. We will go back and talk to your mom.
(Whereupon, the video was concluded)
Jerry Sherman
Interviews of Case# 00150890
Non-Accuser Interview: Jerry Sherman
By: Detective Monica Merrifield
Date: 12/06/2000
DETECTIVE: You just want to take a sit, you can pick that chair or this chair. You want to sit on that one? OK. And your name is Jerry, is that short for anything?
JERRY: mmmm …. Xxxx
DETECTIVE: Xxxx? OK. Well, my name is Monica, OK? And all I want to do is talk to you a little bit and see if everything is OK with you, OK? Let me spell your name real quick, can you spell it for me?
JERRY: J-E-R-R-Y
Q: K?
A: E
Q: Jerry. OK. And do you have a middle name?
A: Reid
Q: Reid, R-E-I-D?
A: Aha
Q: And your last name, can you spell your last name?
A: S-H-E-R-M-A-N
Q: You did that very well. How old are you Jerry?
A: Six
Q: Six. OK. Well, we’re just gonna talk a little bit, OK? And I don’t want you to be afraid. You are not in any kind of trouble. You have not done anything worng, OK? The only thing I ask is that you tell me the truth. Can you promise to do that?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: Can you tell me what the truth is?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: What is the truth?
A: Telling things that you really did, don’t tell a story.
Q: Right, don’t tell a story. So if I said that I was standing up right now, would I be lying?
A: Yes
Q: OK. Because what am I doing?
A: You are sitting down
Q: I am sitting down. OK. I am going to start off with just a little picture of your face, OK? Don’t laugh at my drawing. I put a smile?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: This is Jerry. Jerry, who do you live with?
A: My mom
Q: Mom
A: My dad
Q: Your dad {drawing pictures}. Who are you forgetting?
A: mmmm My brother
Q: Your brother! Was that on purpose?
A: Aha. I forgot
Q: You forgot? Do you have a special name for your brother?
A: Al
Q: You just call him Al
A: That is short for Alan
Q: Short for Alan, just like Xxxx is short for Jerry?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: OK, well, I want to talk to you about body parts for a minute, OK? I am going to show you two drawings and I …. Can you tell me what these are drawings of?
A: Girl and boy
Q: A girl and a boy. And can you tell me which one looks more like you?
A: {points at left drawing}
Q: And that is a drawing of a what?
A: Boy
Q: A boy. And I want you to name some body parts for me. Can you do that?
A: Aha {nodded head yes}
Q: OK. And whatever name, special name you use for that, that is what I want you to tell me, OK?
A: OK
Q: I have not even pointed to it yet. You are ahead of me.
A: {giggles}
Q: What is this a picture of?
A: mmmmm … hair
Q: Hair
A: Arm
Q: Arm.
A; mmmmm
Q: It is OK, just remember what I said, you can tell me anything in here, OK?
A: mmm
Q: Huh?
A: mmm
Q: You can tell me, what do you sit on?
A: bottom
Q: Your bottom. You can tell me anything in here, OK? Just whatever you want to tell me. What is this?
A: Arm
Q: Arm
A: pipi
Q: pipi
A: belly button
Q: belly button
A: nose
Q: nose
A: weenie
Q: Weenie. And this is a tough one. What is that?
A: Eyebrow
Q: An eyebrow. OK, Jerry. Can you tell me the difference between a good touch and a bad touch?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: Can you tell me what a good touch is?
A: {gets up, looking at drawing} mmmm, arm
Q: On your arm? I will just put a g for good touch. {with marker on drawing} Where else would be a good touch>
A: Hair
Q: Hair? So what is a good touch? These are some of the parts that you can get a good touch, How does a good touch make you feel?
A: mmmm … good
Q: Good? And who gives you good touches?
A: mmmm
Q: Can you tell me what kind of good touches you get?
A: mmmm I don’t know.
Q: You don’t know? Has mommy ever given you a touch that is good?
A: Aha
Q: She has, what has she done?
A: Rubbed my leg
Q: She rubbed your leg? OK. What else?
A: Rubbed my head
Q: Rubbed your head. OK. What other kind of touch would be good?
A: mmmm {quiet}
Q: OK. You want me to skip that, you want to go to a bad touch?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: Where on here, on your drawing that you shown would be a bad touch?
A: {points to drawing}
Q: Right there {marks with pen}. Anywhere else?
A: {points again}
Q: {marks} Have you ever had a bad touch?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: Can you tell me about it?
A: mmm, my brother one time when he had his belt and he took off and he then spanked me
Q: Your brother spanked you with his belt?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: Have you had any other bad touches?
A: {shakes head no} No.
Q: No?
A: {shakes head no} No.
Q: You have never been touched in any of the bad parts of your body?
A: {shakes head no} No…. only by my brother
Q: Only by your brother?
A: Every time he touches me {unintelligible}. After school he always takes of his belt and slaps me in the back
Q: Ouch, that is not very nice, is it?
A: Every day
Q: Every day? You get a spanking from your brother every day?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: What about anybody else?
A: No
Q: No? I know your brother plays baseball and karate, do you do any of that?
A: mmm, I play karate
Q: You play karate? Where do you play karate at?
A: At MS. … at Eastside Christian
Q: At Eastside Christian School? Has anything ever happened while you played karate that made you feel uncomfortable?
A: mmm … I fell down when I was kicking
Q: You fell down when you were kicking? Have you had any uncomfortable anything else?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: No? Are you thinking?
A: {says nothing}
Q: Are you make … are you telling me the truth?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: So you are telling me nobody has ever touched your bottom or your weenie?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: Nobody has?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: OK. It is OK to tell me if somebody has. Remember I told you, you are safe in here and you can tell me anything you want to tell me. You are not in any kind of trouble, OK?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: So if something has happened, you can tell me.
A: {says nothing}
Q: Do you want to tell me anything?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: Are you OK?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: What is wrong?
A: Nothing
Q: Nothing? Are you thinking about something?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: What are you thinking about? Want to sit down and tell me, you are OK.
A: I am thinking about anything, anybody touching me in my bad parts.
Q: And? Can you remember anything about anybody touching you on your bad parts?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: OK. I thank you for trying. Do you want to sit there and think for a minute?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: OK. Just remember you can tell me anything you want to tell me. You are not … you have not done anything wrong, OK?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: And if you have been touched, it is not your fault, OK? And you are not in any kind of trouble. Remember, all I want you to do is tell me the truth, OK?
A: OK
Q: OK. {quiet for a while} Do you want to draw for a minute while you are thinking? Will that help you?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: Huh? You can color.
A: {receives marker}
Q: You can color. Want to color something up here? {signaling at board)
A: I can draw a body
Q: You can draw a body? Draw me a body. That is good. That is a leg, isn’t it?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: Whose body are you drawing, Jerry?
A: My brother’s
Q: Your brother’s? What is that?
A: His shirt
Q: His shirt, OK. Now let’s get back to my drawing, OK? Can you remember?
A: No
Q: No? Let me ask you this, has anybody ever shown you their private parts?
A: mmmm Yeah
Q: Yes?
A: My brother
Q: Your brother? Anybody else?
A: My friends
Q: Your friends?
A: In taekwondo
Q: In taekwondo?
A: Because you have to get dressed.
Q: Oh! You have to get dressed in taekwondo?
A: Aha
Q: Who gets dressed?…. Who is in there with you when you are getting dressed?
A: My friend Case, my friend Joshua, my friend Jerry, my friend Johnny and Phillip and that’s
Q: Oh, so all of you get dressed in one big room?
A: Aha
Q: Do you … so … I don’t know anything about karate, so what do you do, you wear your clothes there and you change into your uniform?
A: Aha
Q: What, what, what do you have to, what kind of special uniform do you wear? What is it?
A: The taekwondo uniform looks like this {drawing on board}
Q: So you have to put on pants?
A: Aha
Q: And you put on a shirt? And you put on a belt. Do you wear anything underneath your pants?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: That is a very good drawing. So all of you … Help me for a minute. All of you come the Christian, the … is it CAC?
A: Aha
Q: And all of you go where to change?
A: Bathroom
Q: the bathroom?
A: {says nothing, very distracted, looking for another marker}
Q: It is night here, sweetie. All of you go to the bathroom and change. And so do you leave anything under your uniforms?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: Nothing?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: Underwear?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: You have underwear on, right, Well, does mommy and daddy go with you to the bathroom to change?
A: No
Q: No?
A: We go by ourselves
Q: You go by yourselves. All you little boys in one room?
A: Aha
Q: Oh, my. There’s no grown ups.
A: No
Q: OK. Well, who is your karate … do you have …
A: I have a teacher
Q: You have a teacher
A: Teaching me ,,, ummm … his name is Mr. Gunther
Q: Mr. Gunther? What do you think about Mr. Gunther?
A: Aha, he is a black belt
Q: He is a black belt? That is good, isn’t it?
A: {nodded head yes}. He is the highest rank.
Q: The highest rank?
A: Actually, Master Lennix is the highest rank
Q: Mr. Lennix, and that would be …
A: Master
Q: Master. Oh, my. Well, so, Mr. Gunther teaches you karate
A: Aha
Q: Can you think of anything else Jerry that you want to tell me?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: OK. Remember what I said about the truth, OK?
A: {nodded head yes}
Q: And you can tell me anything. I am just going to ask you one more time, OK? Have you ever had a bad touch right here? {pointing at drawing}
A: {shakes head no}
Q: What about right here? {pointing at drawing}
A: {shakes head no}
Q: And have you ever seen anybody’s, except for the little boys in your changing room?
A: No
Q: No. OK. Well, I thank you very much for coming to talk to me. OK. Where are you going for the rest of the day?
A: mmm my school
Q: Your school? OK. Ready?
A: {nodded head yes}
(Whereupon, the video was concluded)
Stve Hiller
Interviews of Case# 00150890
Non-Accuser Interview: Steve Hiller
By: Detective Mary Finlayson
Date: 12/06/2000
DETECTIVE: Hey, Steve, how are you doing?
STEVE: Fine
DETECTIVE: Would you come in?
DETECTIVE: All right. Do you want to have a seat right here?
STEVE: Are we going to get to draw on this?
Q: Well, not yet, we are going to talk a little bit. How about that? Do you know why you came up here today?
A: Yes
Q: Why did you come today?
A: Hum. I don’t remember
Q: OK. All right. Well. Let me tell you what. You told me your name was Steve
A: S-T-E-V-E
Q: S-T-E-V-E. And how old are you?
A: Eight years old
Q: You are eight
A: I turn nine on February 26
Q: OK. So you are almost nine. OK. Well, Steve, my name is Mary, OK? And I just want to talk to you a little bit today about some things, because we have
A: It’s the sixth?
Q: Uh hu. I think so. Um, let me ask you. Who do you live with at home?
A: Mom and dad
Q: Your mom and dad
A: And sister and dog
Q: Mom, dad (drawing) and your sister. How old is your sister?
A: She is ten
Q: And what is her name?
A: Bailey
Q: Bailey
A: Do you want to know how old they are?
Q: No. That’s OK. They may not want me to know how old they are.
A: Oh, well
Q: So, you said, mom, dad, your sister, and you, and then you have a dog?
A: My sister wanted to call him Champ
Q: Wow. Champ? OK. And, OK. So, do you go to school?
A: Yes
Q: What school do you go to?
A: East Side Christian
Q: East Side Christian? OK. All right, and what, ah, what is your teacher’s name there?
A: Ms. Harrison
Q: Ms. Harrison?
A: Third grade
Q: Third grade, all right.
A: Yeah, she said she wanted second grade and third.
Q: So how do you like it there?
A: It’s good
Q: It’s good? OK. Well I’m glad. Well, Steve, while we are going to talk in here today, we have just a few rules, while we’re talking. One of them
A: {nodded head yes). No being silly?
Q: Huh?
A: No being silly?
Q: It’s OK to be silly (laughs). One of the rules is that we promise to tell each other the truth, and that we won’t tell any lies. Do you know what it means to tell the truth?
A: Yes
Q: What does that mean?
A: Like, if they, if somebody ask, like, Ah, is, if you, Gosh. It’s hard to be a smart kid.
Q: OK. If I say your name is, Ah, Alan, is that true or is that a lie?
A: That is a lie
Q: OK. Let’s say this paper here is white, is that truth or is that a lie?
A: It’s truth, except before you write on it
Q: OK. All right. So you know the difference. Can you promise that you are going only to tell me the truth in here today?
A: Sure {puts right hand on his heart, and rises his left hand)
Q: OK. All right (he laughs). And another rule is that, it is OK for you to talk to me about anything, OK?
A: Even secrets?
Q: Even secrets, or things that may be embarrassing, but you are not in trouble and you are not going to be in trouble and anything that you want to talk about we can talk about, OK?
A: OK
Q: Now, one thing I want to go over with you was about body safety.
A: Body safety
Q: Yeah. And we are going to talk a little about it. Now (puts 2 drawings on the board) would you tell me which one is a boy and which one is a girl?
A: I know that’s a boy (points to one of the drawings). (then points to the other one and touches his head and makes an expression) Ohhhh, a girl
Q: All right, Steve, we are going to talk about, OK, we are going to talk about your body
A: My body
Q: And see if you can tell me. What is those called here? (points to the drawing)
A: Those or that. Eyes
Q: Eyes? OK. And what is this here? (points to the drawing)
A: Nose
Q: Nose. (points to the drawing)
A: Mouth
Q: OK. What is this? (points to the drawing)
A: Ears
Q: (points to the drawing)
A: Hair
Q: OK. And what is this?
A: Arm
Q: Ok and what are these called?
A: Um, that’s right around your chest.
Q: What do you call this?
A: Belly button
Q: OK. And what do you call this here?
A: Legs
Q: And what about this?
A: Head
Q: And this?
A: Foot
Q: OK, what do you call this?
A: Boy, I can’t say that.
Q: You can. Remember?
A: Penis
Q: Ok, all right, and when you turn Steve over, what do you call this here?
A: Back or spinal cord if it’s inside.
Q: And what about this?
A: Butt. B-U-T-T
Q: OK. All right. Let me ask you, Steve, does any body give you hugs that you like?
A: Hum, uh huh.
Q: Who gives you hugs that you like?
A: My mom, my dad, my grandma, my grandpa, my great grandma, my great grandpa you know, family.
Q: Family? OK. Does anybody give you hugs that you don’t like?
A: Hum. (shrug I don’t know)
Q: You don’t know?
A: No
Q: No. So nobody gives you hugs that you don’t like?
A: No
Q: OK. Does anybody give you any kisses that you like?
A: My family
Q: Your family does?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: OK. Does anybody give you kisses that you don’t like?
A: NoQ: No? OK.
A: If you are talking about out of the family, no.
Q: Out of the family?
A: No
Q: OK. Does anybody in your family give you kisses that you don’t like?
A: Hum is that …. If there was I’d say say yes, if there wasn’t, I’d say no. Right?
Q: Right. You just tell the truth. Is there somebody in your family or out of your family give you kisses you don’t like? Then you just tell me who that was that gives you kisses that you don’t like
A: OK
Q: Did anybody give you kisses you don’t like?
A: The only time I run away is when my cousin does it.
Q: Your cousin?
A: The only time I run away is when my cousin does. It’s a girl and she always chases me around.
Q: Your cousin is a girl and chases you?
A: Because we barely get to ever see each other.
Q: How old is she?
A: Hum, eight
Q: Eight? OK. So is she the only one that gives you kisses you don’t like?
A: I like them, except sometimes I just play with her.
Q: OK. That’s OK. So how about, let me ask you this. Does anybody give you touches in your body that you like?
A: I don’t know. (mumbles something) (both in silence looking to each other for about 20 seconds) Oh there’s deer there (pointing at wall)
Q: Yeah, there’s fish. Does anybody ever give you touches on your body that you like?
A: Would that be like hugs?
Q: Well, it could be, but we already talked about hugs
A: Or tickle
Q: Tickles can be touches. Do anybody give you touches on your body that you like?
A: The only time I like it is when my sister tickles me.
Q: She tickles you?
A: She tickles and like when my mom scratches my back. That’s all.
Q: Ok. All right. How about does anybody give you touches that you don’t like?
A: {thinking} (about 20 seconds in silence looking to each other}{no answer}
Q: It is OK to talk about anything you want to in here. You are not in trouble. We just promised to tell each other the truth, OK?
A: (mumbles something) and all that.
Q: So is there anybody now or in the past that gives you any kind of touches that you don’t like?
A: This is getting very annoying.
Q: OK. Why is it getting annoying?
A: No this.
Q: Why is it annoying?
A: I don’t know. I just keep getting this staring feeling at it.
Q: Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. Does anybody give you any touches in your body that you don’t like?
A: (mumbles again) back, Um…
Q: Is there somebody that has touched you somewhere that you don’t like? It is OK to tell me
A: Well, some people have but I really didn’t care because I was much younger
Q: Well, OK, so you were much younger? So who touched you when you were much younger?
A: I’m trying to think. That’s the thing, I don’t actually know if it happened. It’s one of those things that you think might of, but you are not sure.
Q: That’s ok. Who do you think may have touched you when you were much younger?
A: That’s what I am trying to think of.
Q: OK
A: (mumbles again)
Q: Huh?
A: (mumbles again)
Q: You know what? Steve. I know this is hard to talk about, OK. But you are not in trouble, OK?
A: Had anybody else acted like this? Kind of?
Q: Yes, lots of people act a little nervous. But you know, I talk to boys and girls every day about stuff like this. And some people come and talk about things that make them feel sad or uncomfortable. And I know it is not easy to talk about. But that is what I do every day, and I am not going to be upset with you or mad at you. And I am not going to laugh on you or feel funny about anything that you tell me, OK? I just need to make sure that I know the truth if something happens to you. So that we can work it out, OK?
A: Unless I’m trying to be funny, can we do it?
Q: Yeah. You are trying to be funny I’ll laugh, OK? (laughs) Now it is really important that we talk about this, cause you don’t have to keep talking about it when you leave here. But for today it’s important for me to know if something’s happened.
A: Now, I’ve done this at my house. Some of these questions and like, I’m not even familiar with.
Q: Uh huh. Ok well let me ask, we had talked about, and I said has anybody touched Steve? Has anybody touched on your body anywhere that you did not like it?
A: I don’t think so.
Q: You don’t think so? Are you afraid to talk about it?
A: No.
Q: No.
A: I knew this, I knew there was gonna be people talking about it.
Q: Why? Why did you know that?
A: Because my mom and dad where just asking me some of questions when I got home from school.
Q: Uh huh.
A: Cause I’d found out something about it at school.
Q: Uh huh.
A: Somebody in the class room (mumbles)
Q: What did you find out at school?
A: Somebody might be put in jail for something.
Q: No. Who told you that?
A: Um, somebody in my class. Two boys in my class. I think one found out from another but I’m not sure which way around it is.
Q: Ok. Well you don’t have to worry about somebody going to jail ok?
A: Ok
Q: Cause you are not sending anybody to jail. It’s not anything to do with you putting anybody in jail.
A: That’s just what I thought about, just what I heard about in school.
Q: That’s ok. Who did you hear was going to jail? What person?
A: Might?
Q: Uh huh.
A: Where did I get this? I don’t know.
Q: Who did you hear? What person did you hear might be going to jail?
A: My Taekwondo teacher
Q: And what’s his name?
A: Mr. Gunther
Q: Mr. Gunther?
A: nods.
Q: Ok. How long have you been taking Taekwondo?
A: About four years now
Q: About four years
A: Actually about three cause I quit for a year. Cause I took golf because it was getting boring to me cause we would do, since we were having a lot of test’s before, we would have to stand in front, we would have to do stuff for forums and stuff and it would get boring to me, I just didn’t do it for a year I did gymnastics and then I started back and the only reason I did gymnastics is because it made me a lot than Taekwondo.
Q: Ok. Well, um, so how did you like taking Taekwondo with Mr. Gunther?
A: It was fun.
Q: Do you know why people said he was going to go to jail?
A: I didn’t find out till I got to my house because they weren’t allowed to tell. They were just allowed to tell that he might have to go to jail or something. Um, touching some kids in his Taekwondo class inappropriately.
Q: Do you know where he touched them?
A: (points to picture and mumbles)
Q: Ok, so you heard that he had touched some kids here (point) and on the back. And did you know that some children had said that he did that?
A: (nods) uh huh.
Q: And that was while they were in his Taekwondo class.
A: What?
Q: While they were taking Taekwondo?
A: Oh, I thought you were meaning that was the only reason they were taking Taekwondo.
Q: Oh no. That’s where it happened at. So you knew about that, ok?
A: I knew about it from about like, one minute, two minutes, well one minute after I got home. Two minutes after I got home.
Q: So your mom and dad ask you about it?
A: Actually my mom did. And when my dad came home my dad found about it. Found out about it. I don’t know if he found out about it, my mom called him, or…
Q: Ok, well you know your mom is just really concerned because she remembers a while back that you got to where you didn’t want to go back to Taekwondo? And you had been upset and you did not want to go back.
A: Cause it was getting really boring.
Q: Was getting boring. Ok. So you say knew that people said that Mr. Gunther had touched some boys in their.. um?
A: Actually nobody else has talked me about it. I’ve just heard about it. I just heard about it as soon as I got, like a couple of minutes after I got home.
Q: Well, Steve let me ask you. Did Mr. Gunther ever do anything to you?
A: On the front or the back, he just like (pats his butt) patted right here.
Q: He patted you where?
A: Well, this is what my mom said isn’t really bad. Because a lot of people do it. Like football players do it and stuff. Pat each other on the back.
Q: Uh huh. Ok. Has he ever touched you on the front?
A: No. Not that I can remember cause I’ve already been thinking about it since yesterday and I can’t remember anything.
Q: So you don’t remember him ever touching you under your clothes or over your clothes?
A: No. Well if you are talking about pushing in the side of my shirt because it was hanging out and I didn’t recognize, no. Cause it was just hanging out and um my belt, so you just have to push it down a little. You just barely, he didn’t even put his hand down there, just pushed it down a little.
Q: Did you ever go to his house?
A: No
Q: Did you ever go on a field trip with him?
A: No
Q: Where you ever alone with Mr. Gunther?
A: No, I was alone with Mr. Gunther like with two other kids because he so many boxes for sparring night that we had to look for, that’s the only time right inside the closet. Like right on the side.
Q: Did anything ever happen that made you feel uncomfortable?
A: No, not that I can remember.
Q: Do you think that maybe it makes you too sad to talk about it?
A: No
Q: No.
A: This is actually what we were doing at my house. My mom said to talk about it.
Q: Ok, would you tell someone if something had happened?
A: Yes I would have.
Q: All right. So no one has ever touched in place here (points to crotch) or here (points to butt)
A: Well, somebody has patted me like (like this) because a lot of people do that.
Q: Ok, well, besides that. Has anybody else done anything else?
A: No
Q: Ok, so is there anything you want to tell about that happened or anything you need to talk about?
A: No
Q: No. Ok, well if you think of anything or remember something, you can talk to your mom about it and then she can..
A: I know, she’s already told me.
Q: Ok, all right. Do you have any questions?
A: No
Q: Ok, well thanks for coming in and talking to me today Steve.
A: Already had one other question.
Q: You did? What was that?
A: That I thought might have been answered, but it wasn’t there. I just thought it might have.
Q: What?
A: Have you seen him do it to anybody? I think I did like once.
Q: What do you think you saw once?
A: Just patting, you know.
Q: Like that ( like he showed earlier in a sports way). OK, but you haven’t seen anything else?
A: Not that I can really remember. ok
Q: OK, well thanks for coming in.
(Whereupon, the video was concluded)
Ken Chapin
Interviews of Case# 00150890
Non-Accuser Interview: Ken Chapin
By: Detective Streefkerk
Date: 12/13/2000
Q: So you say that if anybody ever did give you a touch that you didn’t like you would tell?
A: Aha
Q: OK. And when you tell me that nobody ever has done that, are you being honest with me
A: Yes, I am
Q: OK, alrighty, hold on one second Ken.
A: But it has happened to one of my friends
Q: Who’s that?
A: Parker
Q: Parker?
A: Parker Jackson
Q: And how do you know that?
A: Because he told me
Q: What did he tell you?
A: He told me that he was in my taekwondo class but I didn’t come, I hurt my finger and, hum, he did it that day
Q: He did it? Who is he?
A: Hum, Mr. Gunther
Q: And did you say that or that something that somebody just told you?
A: Hum, Parker just told me
Q: Where did he say it happened at?
A: Hum, I think he said it happened in taekwondo class in the dark room.
Q: OK, did he tell you anything else?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: Did he tell you about anybody else getting touched?
A: {shakes head no}
Q: He just told you that he did
A: Aha
Q: OK. Alright, hold on one second, Ken, I’ll be right back with you.
Larry Kramdem
Interviews of Case# 00150890
Non-Accuser Interview: Larry Kramdem
By: Detective Monica Merrifield
Date: 12/07/2000
DETECTIVE: And you can pick which side of the board you want sit. You can sit on the left or the right side.
LARRY KRAMDEM: Actually this side
DETECTIVE: Actually that side? Ok. Ok, and you’re Larry, right? Well Larry, my name is Monica Ok?
LARRY KRAMDEM: Mm hmm.
Q: And I want to let you know that you are safe in here, ok. Ok, it’s a nice room in here isn’t it?
A: What is that over there?
Q: You know what I think that is? I think that’s when the lights go off and the power, that might be a safety light.
A: Oh
Q: Because it’s really dark, there’s no windows in here. So what I want you to do though Ok, I want you to tell me whatever you’re gonna tell me.
A: That’s a window.
Q: That’s for decoration.
A: Oh
Q: Because we are on the inside of the building, remember right?
A: Right.
Q: That’s inside. It’s deck, see it’s decoration.
A: Oh they built a mirror.
Q: Yeah so, you can tell me whatever you want to in here, ok.
A: Ok
Q: You are not in any kind of trouble. You are not going to get anybody in any kind of trouble, ok.
A: I know.
Q: I know you know. I’m just telling you to make sure that you remember. And the only thing that I ask is that you tell me the truth, ok?
A: Ok
Q: Promise?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: Know what the truth is?
A: Yes
Q: Can you tell me? Tell me what the truth is. What does it mean to tell the truth?
A: Uh, don’t lie.
Q: Don’t lie. So if I am telling you right now that this piece of paper is green. What am I doing to you?
A: Lying
Q: Lying, ok. Ok, Larry, how do you spell your name?
A: L-A-R-R-Y
Q: How do you spell your last name?
A: K-R-A-M-D-E-M
Q: Ok, my marker is not doing very well. How old are you Larry?
A: Seven
Q: Seven. Where do you go to school?
A: Murdoch Elementary.
Q: You like it?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: So are you in the second grade?
A: No
Q: No, first grade?
A: uh huh.
Q: Who’s your teacher?
A: Ms. (unintelligible)
Q: You like her? Is she Nice?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: Good, I’m glad. Obviously since you had a good day at school, your still smiling after school, that’s a good one.
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: This is you, this is Larry. Who do you live with Larry?
A: My mom.
Q: Your mom
A: My two brothers
Q: Two brothers and what are their names?
A: Willy and Oliverio
Q: Anybody else live at your house?
A: Umm, no.
Q: No.
A: If they come to spend the night
Q: So if somebody comes to spend the night. So at Larry’ house there’s mommy, Willy, and Oliverio.
A: And daddy.
Q: And Daddy. You forgot your daddy?
A: Uh huh.
Q: And Dad. Any pets?
A: Umm No. Well back at my old house.
Q: At your old house?
A: We used to live in Florida.
Q: You used to live in Florida? Did you have alligators as pets?
A: No
Q: I’m just checking that’s were alligator’s are from.
A: I know.
Q: You know. Well Larry, what I want to talk to you today about is body safety. Ok? Remember what I said? Tell me anything. Don’t be afraid, don’t be embarrassed. Ok?
A: Ok.
Q: Just be truthful. I’m going to show you two drawings and I want you to tell me what these are drawings of.
A: People
Q: People
A: Kids
Q: Can you be more specific than that? What kind of kids?
A: Naked big kids.
Q: Well yeah, but what is this a picture of?
A: Front of a boy
Q: And what is this
A: Front of a girl and back of a girl
Q: And which one looks more like you.
A: (points)
Q: And that would be a picture of?
A: Girl
Q: This?
A: No that
Q: Ok, which one looks more like you? The picture of the what?
A: The boy
Q: The boy. Ok. Ok, well Larry, I’m going to point to some body parts, Ok?
A: Ok
Q: And when I point to them I want you to tell me what you call them. Just whatever you call them, ok?
A: Ok, head, arms
Q: Arms. You don’t have to be embarrassed with me. I’ve heard it all, I promise you.
A: Bottom.
Q: Bottom, just whatever you call it ok? Remember we can tell each other everything in here.
A: Eye, I don’t know what that’s called
Q: You don’t know what that’s called?
A: Hair, belly button, leg, I don’t know.
Q: Whatever you call it.
A: Private part.
Q: Ok. And?
A: Butt.
Q: Ok, Larry I want to ask you. Do you get hugs that you like?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: Who gives you hugs that you like?
A: Mom and Dad and my brothers.
Q: Mom and dad and your brothers. You ever get any hugs that you don’t like?
A: No
Q: No. What about kisses that you like?
A: My whole family
Q: Your whole family. Have you ever gotten any kisses that you don’t like?
A: Mm, no.
Q: No. What about touches? Where on your body would you think it would make you feel uncomfortable if somebody touched you? Can you show me here? Where would it be uncomfortable if somebody touched? Can you point with my pen? Would that make you feel better?
A: (points at drawing)
Q: On your private? Ok. You don’t have to be shy in here. You can tell me anything in here, ok? And believe you won’t be getting anybody in trouble and you are not in any kind of trouble, ok? Have you ever had a touch on your body that made you feel uncomfortable?
A: Mmm, hrrrm. I don’t remember a time that I ever been touched right.
Q: You don’t know how many times? So.
A: I don’t know.
Q: Huh? Have you ever been touched anywhere that made you feel uncomfortable?
A: No
Q: No? You sure?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: Can I tell you something? A friend of yours was in here and he told me something that had happened, and I wanted to make you that you are ok. And.
A: A friend of mine?
Q: It’s ok to tell me. If there’s somebody that’s touched and made you feel uncomfortable.
A: What kind of friend?
Q: Oh. Do you play any sports?
A: Baseball
Q: Baseball.
A: Uh huh.
Q: Do you do anything else?
A: I played soccer one time.
Q: Ok, do you take Karate?
A: I used to, but I quitted. I stopped on yellow belt.
Q: You stopped on yellow belt. Did anything ever happen there that made you feel uncomfortable?
A: No
Q: Are you sure you are being truthful with me?
A: Yes
Q: Ok, because I’m just telling because some of your friends been in here and tell things have happened. So I just want to make sure they haven’t happened to you.
A: Ok
Q: Have you seen anything that you didn’t think was right? Have you seen anybody get touched where they shouldn’t get touched?
A: No, I saw a kid say bad words.
Q: You saw other kids saying bad words. Did you ever see anybody touch anybody’s private parts?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody ever touch your private parts?
A: No. Honest.
Q: Ok, well I’m just worried because somebody told that you would know. And I’m just making sure you’re being truthful with me.
A: I am.
Q: So you’ve never seen anybody at Karate being touched in their privates?
A: Hmm, yes.
Q: You did.
A: You never asked me that.
Q: Ok, Who touched somebody in their privates?
A: Our teacher.
Q: What’s his name?
A: Mr. Gunther.
Q: Mr. Gunther. And what did you see?
A: Jimmy told me, my mom asked me, if I, if Jimmy talked to me about it. And he said, he, Mr. Gunther touched him in the private parts.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Gunther touch him in his private parts?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever get touched in your private parts? It’s ok to tell.
A: No
Q: Do you know where everybody got touched at? Where they where?
A: (points down)
Q: Do you know what room they were in?
A: It’s in the, uh, in the room, mirrors, with the mirrors.
Q: And nothing ever happened to you in there?
A: (shakes head no)
Q: Who ties your belt?
A: Sometimes Mr. Gunther does. But now I quit
Q: Why did you quit?
A: Because Mr. Gunther doesn’t teach there anymore.
Q: Did you ever get touched where it bothered you or it was uncomfortable? On the outside of your clothing? On the inside of your clothing?
A: No
Q: Ok, well that’s what I wanted to know. I wanted to make you were ok, ok?
A: Ok
Q: Have you been truthful with me?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: You sure? Is there anything you want to tell?
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: Ok.
A: What’s in here?
Q: Probably some Magic Markers.
A: (kid plays in the back ground)
Q: Ok.
(Whereupon, the video was concluded)
Tommy Jenks
Interviews of Case# 00150890
Non-Accuser Interview: Tommy Jenks
By: Detective Whittaker
Date: 12/08/2000
DETECTIVE: The following interview is between detective RA Whittaker and Tommy Jenks. Today’s date is 12/08/2000, time is 11:02 AM. We are at the Crimes Against Children’s Office at 2221 Austell Rd. Marietta Ga. I’ll be leaving the room at this time to go get Tommy.
TOMMY JENKS: (Not in room yet)
DETECTIVE: Now this room here is a little small and some of the chairs are a little small, but we’ll have to make do.
TOMMY JENKS: (laughs)
Q: I figured if I can sit in one, have a seat right there, if I can sit in one of these little bitty chairs as big as I am, you can sit in one of them too.
A: (laughs)
Q: Tommy my name is Rick. Ok, like Ms. Kathy told you my name is Rick And I just want to ask you a few questions.
A: Uh huh.
Q: Uh, your name is Tommy? How do you spell that?
A: T-O-M-M-Y.
Q: T-O-M-M-Y. And your last name?
A: Jenks
Q: Jenks. How old are you Tommy?
A: Twelve
Q: Twelve years old? Ok, uh, where do you go to school?
A: Eastside Christian.
Q: Eastside Christian. Do you know, uh, where that is located at?
A: Lower Roswell
Q: Roswell Rd.
A: Uh huh.
Q: Uh, where do you live at?
A: Mmm, What do you mean by that? Like?
Q: Uh, where do you live?
A: Pine Valley. {Name changed]
Q: Pine Valley.
A: Marietta
Q: Marietta?
A: (unintelligible), I mean, I just went blank. 999 Delk Rd.
Q: 99…?
A: 999 Delk Rd
Q: 999 Delk?
A: Like Delk.
Q: D-E-L-K rd? Ok, that’s in Marietta?
A: Yes
Q: Who do you live there with?
A: My Parents.
Q: You’re Parents? What’s your mom’s name?
A: Um, Rea. Rea
Q: Rea? What about your dad?
A: Albert.
Q: Albert. Ok, and your last name is Jenks also?
A: Mm hmm.
Q: Do you have any brother’s or sisters?
A: Umm, John, Katie, and Christine.
Q: John, Katie, and Christine. How old is John?
A: Ten
Q: What about Katie?
A: Ummm, I think nine.
Q: Nine? What about Christine?
A: Fifteen.
Q: Fifteen, ok. Uh, do you like going to Eastside? Is it Eastside Christian School?
A: Uh huh
Q: You like going there?
A: uh huh.
Q: How long you been going there?
A: Um, I think since 16 months.
Q: 16 months? What grade are you in now?
A: Sixth
Q: Sixth Grade. So you like going there? Good school?
A: uh huh
Q: You get good grades?
A: Yeah
Q: Yeah
A: And mostly usually, I think I’m a straight A student. I think that’s why.
Q: That’s good, that’s great. Uh, what, what do you like to do at school? What’s your favorite thing to do there?
A: Well, it used to be going outside but not anymore because we never get to do it. So, it’s probably just the quick break when we get to outside for like 5 minutes and we can talk and do whatever.
Q: Yeah
A: Yeah
Q: Ok. Uh, any kind of sports or anything?
A: I’m on the basketball team.
Q: You’re on the basketball team. They have a basketball team there at school?
A: They have a lot of different sports. But I only did basketball.
Q: You only did basketball?
A: Yes, that’s my only sport.
Q: Yeah
A: Well, because they don’t have baseball. It’s another sport that I do.
Q: So you like baseball?
A: Uh huh.
Q: What kinda… what all kinda sports do they have?
A: Um, they have soccer, basketball, they have golf, they have, umm, track.
Q: Track.
A: And I think that’s about all.
Q: That it?
A: But then there’s some extra stuff that I don’t think goes with the school.
Q: What’s that?
A: Like Taekwondo, Ballet, they all go with Eastside stuff. I don’t really know, that’s like after school stuff.
Q: After school?
A: Yeah.
Q: Ok, So they don’t teach that during school or P.E or anything?
A: No. Sometimes they do stuff, like stuff from it, but it’s not really teaching you.
Q: OK. You said they teach it after school, is it taught by teachers? Or?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who teaches the Ballet?
A: I don’t know.
Q: You don’t know?
A: No.
Q: What about, you said, Taekwondo?
A: Yeah
Q: Who teaches that?
A: Gunther.
Q: Gunther?
A: Fiek.
Q: Fiek
A: The one…
Q: What one?
A: The one that’s in jail right now.
Q: The one in jail right now. What do you know about that?
A: Yeah, nothing, not really.
Q: Uh, well you brought up Gunther. How well do you know him?
A: Um, like 5 or 6 years.
Q: About 5 or 6 years. How do you know him?
A: Um, well, I started Taekwondo, and Randy… he was our first instructor guy, and he said he was going to teach, but Gunther said he did something wrong and the Church made him go away. So, he had to leave and Gunther took over and Gunther’s been teaching for six years.
Q: Yeah. But, you said Randy, do you know what Randy’s last name is?
A: No, he’s been gone for six years.
Q: Ok, so he was the first teacher?
A: Yeah, he was only there for about a month.
Q: About a month. And you said he did something wrong?
A: I think. That’s what…Cause he said he was going to help build churches or something this other country. But Gunther said that wasn’t true. He said that he did something wrong, they were just telling us so he didn’t have to tell us the real reason.
Q: Do you know why you are here today?
A: No
Q: Well let me ask you something. Uh, do you know the difference between a good touch and bad touch.
A: Yeah
Q: Yeah. You probably went over that in school?
A: Touch? What do you mean by touch?
Q: Any kind of touch.
A: Yeah.
Q: Touch that makes you feels bad or a touch that makes you feel good.
A: Yeah
Q: Do you know what uncomfortable means?
A: Yes
Q: So, do you know the difference between a good touch and bad touch. A good touch is something, a touch that you like. A bad touch is something don’t like, hurts you, or makes you feel uncomfortable
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: Ok, Uh, Have you or can you give me an example of a good touch.
A: Not really, I don’t really understand what you mean by a good touch… touch.
Q: Well…
A: Well, you mean somebody touching?
Q: Yeah, say your mom comes up and gives you a hug.
A: Yeah
Q: Would you consider that a good touch or a bad touch?
A: Good touch.
Q: What about uh, your dad, if you dad came up and gave you a hug or a kiss on the head? Would that be a good touch or a bad touch?
A: Yes, good touch.
Q: What if your brother came up and kicked you in the knee?
A: Bad touch.
Q: Bad touch.
A: Yeah.
Q: Wouldn’t make you feel good would it?
A: No.
Q: What, can you think of any other touches that would be bad?
A: Umm
Q: Or would make you feel uncomfortable?
A: Somebody else touching something they shouldn’t, like…
Q: Like?
A: Like, umm, privates and stuff. Stuff like that.
Q: Ok, anything else?
A: Well, somebody came up and punched me, I wouldn’t like that.
Q: (laughs) I don’t like it when people do that to me either.
A: I don’t like it people touching my face like that (makes expression).
Q: That’s a grandma thing. Right there, they come up and pinch ya. They’re check pinchers.
A: I don’t like that.
Q: My Grandma used to do that to me all the time " You’re such a cute little boy".
A: Mine still does.
Q: My grandmother died here a long time ago so, so she don’t that to anymore.
A: So did mine like, but one grandmother still alive but the other one and he got re-married.
Q: That’s good, sometimes you have to that. Uh, what we are talking about is good touch and bad touch. Some touches make feel good, some touches make you feel uncomfortable. Have you ever had a touch that made you feel good?
A: Yeah
Q: Yeah, like what?
A: A hug.
Q: A Hug?
A: Yeah
Q: Ok. From mom/dad?
A: Dad
Q: Yeah. What about touches that make you feel sad? Or made you feel uncomfortable?
A: Well, a lot from sisters and brothers. And..
Q: What kind of touches from your sisters and brothers?
A: Just like hitting and stuff.
Q: Hitting you?
A: Yeah and that’s really it.
Q: That’s really it?
A: Yeah, nothing like what’s going on right now?
Q: Nothing likes what’s going on right now?
A: Hmm mm.
Q: What’s going on right now? You seem to know something.
A: Yeah, Umm
Q: What do you know?
A: He’s been accused with molestation or something.
Q: Who’s that?
A: Gunther.
Q: Gunther?
A: Yeah.
Q: Ok.
A: And, I think that is like playing with your privates and stuff. I think. And then he’s gotten.. for every charge there’s been eight charges. For every charge he’s serving five years or something. That’s all I know.
Q: Who told you all this?
A: My parents
Q: Your parents? Ok. Uh, How do you feel about that?
A: Um.
Q: You said that..
A: I can’t believe most of it.
Q: Can’t believe it. You said that you knew or you know Gunther.
A: He’s like, he’s like, he comes over to the house like every night. He used to, now he doesn’t.
Q: Over your house?
A: Yeah at our house. Takes us out movies, stuff like that.
Q: Takes you out to movies, just you?
A: Me and my brother, sometimes my sisters. Usually just me and my brother.
Q: Ok. So ya’ll go out to movies with him and everything. Ok. Does he have any kids?
A: No, he just got married like six months ago.
Q: Just got married. What’s his wife’s name?
A: Amy.
Q: Amy. You said it is Fike? Fiek?
A: No Fiek, the news says Fike, but that’s not right.
Q: So it’s Fiek?
A: It’s Fiek.
Q: How do you and Gunther.. Does he still train you? Or uh.
A: No, not anymore. Yeah he did but now, well, my mom is keeping us out till we get all this over with and then we might go back we might not.
Q: When was the last time your trained with him?
A: Um, probably, it happened Sunday, probably last week on Monday.
Q: Last week on Monday. Well you said that your brothers and your sisters are giving you touches that made you feel uncomfortable..
A: Um yeah but, sometimes I deserved it.
Q: (laughs) You deserved it!? My little boy is like that too. Every once in a while he deserves to get a little touch from his sister he don’t like. She’ll smack upside the head every once in a while. He gets a little out of line with her, start picking or her and punched on her and she comes right back at him. He doesn’t want to do that too often. Have you ever gotten a touch from anybody else that you don’t like
A: No not really.
Q: Anything that made you feel uncomfortable or anything like that?
A: Not really.
Q: Ok, what about uh?
A: Well, if I get like punished I don’t really like that.
Q: How do you get punished?
A: Um, I used to like get hit with the belt. But that was used to.
Q: By?
A: Mom.
Q: Mom. Ok.
A: And now the punishment is like…..um, you lose tv and stuff it’s not really like that anymore.
Q: Yeah
A: Now it’s just lose Tv and sit at the table hour and do nothing. Like detention sort of. That’s another one
Q: What would you rather do, get a spanking or have to sit at the table for an hour?
A: Probably just sit at the table. It’s not that bad. We’re aloud to do home work so…
Q: Well, back to what we were saying when we was talking about Uh, good touches and bad touches, uh , touches that made you feel uncomfortable and things like that. Uh, have you ever gotten a touch from anybody other than your sister’s.
A: No
Q: That made you feel uncomfortable?
A: No not really, there might be a time at school when somebody comes up and does something that they were just trying to be cool but the end up doing it too hard. But that’s just…
Q: You named another touch that would make you feel uncomfortable that was touching on your private. Has anyone ever done anything like that to you?
A: No.
Q: Ok. Has anything ever asked you to do anything like that to them?
A: No
Q: Has anyone ever done anything, even if it was a touch that made you feel uncomfortable?
A: Ummm, yeah.
Q: What’s that?
A: Just doing things that, bad, that I know we’ll get in trouble for. But then I end up doing it anyway. Get busted.
Q: (laughs) Get busted.
A: Yeap.
Q: Uh, You were telling me that uh, that you are pretty good friends with this Gunther guy?
A: Yeah
Q: Ok, when you say good friend, you say that he takes you out to movies sometimes and your brother and all that.
A: Goes to Church
Q: He goes to church? Where do you go to church at?
A: Same. Eastside Baptist.
Q: How often does he take you out to movies?
A: Um, he probably took us at least probably 2 times a month.
Q: Yeah.
A: And in the summer we go to a lot of places. Like Six Flags and places all like that.
Q: You and Gunther and..your brother…
A: We go to Six Flags with the whole, and Gunther and Amy, but when we go to the movies it’s just Gunther and Amy, me and John.
Q: Ok, is Amy usually there or does he ever take you by himself?
A: Um, he well, he married only six months ago. So it used to be just us three but now it’s usually four.
Q: How do you feel about Gunther?
A: Um, I mean like right now?
Q: Yeah.
A: I can’t believe like what’s going on. I’m not really sure if he did it, but I don’t know if he would do it, but…
Q: Have you ever seen Gunther do anything like this?
A: No
Q: No. I understand you took Taekwondo. Where does this take place? Taekwondo?
A: The CAC. There church is "here" and the school is "right there" and the CAC is the big center place. Christian Activity Center where you can do basketball…
Q: Is over at the Church?
A: No, it’s like a across the street. There is a street that goes down the middle and on this side is the CAC and on this side is the Church and school.
Q: So the lessons, they take place at the Christian Activity Center?
A: Yeah
Q: Is that like a big gymnasium or?
A: There’s a track.. they almost had a bowling alley but they couldn’t come up with the money. So now it’s just like a play room sort or. There’s a weight room, snack rack, there’s a gym and there’s rooms where…
Q: Where there any special rooms there that Gunther used to have?
A: Yeah, there uh, there’s an office where all the people that have something to do with the after school stuff. They have an office in there. He’s got one.
Q: He’s one in there.
A: I’ve been there a lot.
Q: You’ve been there in there a lot. What goes on in there?
A: He just, that’s like, like his business. He has a business where I think he does some stuff in there. And he just, I don’t think in there a whole lot.
Q: Does he have a room anywhere in there if he is discipline one of the students or talking to them or anything?
A: No. Well, he’ll bring them in there just talk to them.
Q: In his office?
A: Yeah, cause he can talk to them in private instead of having to go.
Q: How often does he have to take somebody into his office to talk?
A: I haven’t seen it in the past few years.
Q: Have you ever seen him do anything like that?
A: Like what happened right now?
Q: Take any of the kids into the office.
A: Yeah I have once, but he just talks to you, he just talks to you about (coughs) Goly.
Q: Boy you have a bad cough.
A: How you need to act better in class. If you mess up a lot then he’ll take you in there and kinda talk to you about what you need to do right.
Q: Well, I’m just going to come right out and ask you, Ok. Has Gunther ever done anything like this with you?
A: No.
Q: Ever done anything that makes you feel uncomfortable?
A: No. That’s why uh..
Q: Have you ever seen him anything or touch anybody?
A: No.
Q: That would have made you feel uncomfortable had it been you?
A: I haven’t seen anything like that.
Q: Have you ever seen him take kids back into any of the rooms in the training center or anything?
A: Yeah, but usually it’s just talking. Usually it’s us me and my brother. Me and my brother. Cause he’s just talking about like something that maybe going on after, telling us like.. what time is it again? What time is the game? What are you doing tomorrow? Do you want to go to a movie? Or something like that. That’s usually all.
Q: Do you remember any of the boys or girls that he took back in his office?
A: No, no.
Q: You don’t remember any of their names?
A: Their six, I don’t know. They are only six years old, I don’t…. but they trust (unintelligible)
Q: Yeah. Well let me ask you this. If you found out that this actually did happen, would that change the way that you feel about Gunther?
A: A little bit.
Q: Ok. Do you find it strange that all these little boys were coming up and saying this?
A: No Not… Well Yeah. Cause I didn’t think he would do something like that, then it happened.
Q: Does it make you nervous?
A: Nope.
Q: Thinking about it?
A: Nope.
Q: No, now your brother, I understand your brother is out here. What’s his name? John?
A: John.
Q: Has he ever said anything like that you? Or told you anything like that?
A: Like what?
Q: Like Gunther’s ever done anything like that to him?
A: It hasn’t happened to anybody in our family, no.
Q: Ok, what about your sisters? Have they ever said anything like that?
A: No. They both quit like 5 or maybe 2 or 3 years ago.
Q: Yeah. Well Tommy I appreciate you coming in here and talking to me ok. We are just trying to find what all has gone on and get to the bottom of it and find out the truth.
A: (nodded head yes)
Q: And I understand you uh, you still like Gunther and that you don’t believe that this is going on, uh, and I’m not here to try and convince you otherwise ok. I’m just here if anything happened to you or if you know if anything has happened to anybody.
A: Uh huh, ok.
Q: I appreciate you coming here and talking to me. Do you know the difference between the truth and I lie?
A: Uh huh.
Q: What do you think the difference is?
A: Truth is what really happened and a lie is just something made up so you don’t get in trouble.
Q: So everything you told me here today, is that the truth or lie?
A: Yeah it’s the truth.
Q: True ok, well that’s it. You did the right thing by talking to me and saying nothing’s happened and that’s great. Ok. And I appreciate you coming in here and talking to me. I’m going to let you go back out here and sit, ok?
A: Ok.
(Whereupon, the video was concluded)